Sex

[danielwalline]

Ori,
I know this is probably out of line, or at least off the subject.  However, your title does mention sex, so I feel emboldened to ask this question.  I have an avid interest in history.  I have become a fan of the Spartans, mostly from your description.  However, I recently saw a documentary about Sparta.  It seems that males, and females were raised apart, and lived separate lives.  They knew little about how to relate to the oposite sex.  Marriages were arranged, and spouses did not live together.  Most sexual relations between them were furtive things in visits of the husband in the middle of the night.  And, of course, it mentions that boys may have had sex with their mentors, and other members of their military unit.

As for Alexander, he was indesputably a great tactition.  However, he probably murdered his own father.  The army that he feilded was entirely the product of his fathers efforts.  When he was in Persia, after conquest, he led a drunkend debatched life style.  He had dozens of carefully chosen wives, but the love of his life was another man, who seemed to travel with him to serve that as his only purpose.  When this beloved man died, Alexander was so agreived that he himself died a short time later.

Argh.  None of this sounds natural to me.  These habits were certainly not the result of evolutionary guidence.  Were they?  I would love to hear a response on this, and would greatly appreciate it if you could refute the whole thing!
Dan

[Dano3000]

 So your basically asking for confirmation, from a nutrition guru, that homosexuality is not natural.
 I will say I take offense, that is all.

[danielwalline]

I had no intention of insulting you or anyone else with my beliefs.  I am sure you intended to insult me.  You did.

[TheUsurper]

danielwalline,

i'm glad you were insulted, you are an idiot.  I wasn't planning on commenting on this thread because of how trivial it really is.  Do you really care what the Spartans did or didn't do?  You sound like you are asking Ori to "save" your ideological view of a society that existed thousands of years ago that has no bearing on your life.  The grecian societies viewed beauty through the male during this era, as opposed to through the female as in later eras.  It makes sense then as it is "semi-acceptable" for women to have relations with each other nowadays, or at least much moreso than between males, that this situation could have been reversed in the classical era.  Big whoop.  What does this have to do with your health, fitness, or survival?

[ChenZhen]

ROFL

OMG, it must be the warrior diet, it makes all of us gay!!! 

please, please call ori's radio show and ask your question, would be great great fun

there's this saying that there are no stupid questions but i guess it's not always true 

[Rachel421]

............so you're saying the warrior diet may help eventually with my dried up libido??

fantastic!!

fyi: my politics, spirituality, sexuality (or lack there of, lol), is not part of this forum.   talk shop here, or start a new forum for historical debates about controversial issues.   its sad im even posting to this troll.

[danielwalline]

If you want to see the effect of nutrition and fitness to sexuality, listen to the archived radio show for March 19, 2008.  Someone, if they could stand the truth, would have to take up his own words as part of his diet.

[Theo]

yeahh,

beliefs are just that, beliefs.

i personally never understood homosexuality, from an evolutionary perspective i think you are right, homosexuality has no place in reproduction but society has a vast effect on us, our beliefs etc

as theusurper put it very well, it's not wrong for men to see beauty in other men, when we look at bodybuilding competitions and feats of strength, we are doing just that and seeing two attractive women going at it isn't natural but a lot of men go for that lol.

as i said, i do believe heterosexuality is natural and i'm not comfortable around overly 'gay' people, which tbh is more of an imitation of a perception of being 'gay' but i digress, that's my view on it and i expect it to be accepted just as i accept those of a gay person, neither is right or wrong.

this is still a valid conversation though, just  .. lol a bad way to start it?

sex can be for reproduction or pleasure, the former is a heterosexual action, the latter can be done with women, men and well..use your imagination lol
 it's personal preference really.

[Dano3000]

Good point wolf. There is a difference between "gay" and gay. Gay people are sexually attracted to the same sex. "Gay" people follow a ridiculous image that was sold to them by modern pop culture. Its very hard to be comfortable around anyone that is fake.
I'm listening to the podcast, Walline, and there is nothing said so far about homosexuality, but the feminization of the male human. There is a difference between the image social engineers behind desks are force feeding men who are gullible enough and a man who is capable of loving another man on an intimate level. I really find the former extremely hard to appreciate, as its just high school teeny bopper magazine following. Mleh, my personal opinion.
I myself am sexually open, though you could have probably guessed that already. I lean more towards heterosexuality but I have had relationships in the past with men. I dont speak with a lisp. I could care less about whos famous and who isnt. I dont listen to shitty pop music, or put things in my hair. I have an unending hatred for our modern social structure, and the propogators of the entertainment culture within it.
But to some, I am still less of a human, despite not being a stereotype. So I guess what I am asking you, Walline; Am I less of a person to you because of how I feel about both sexes?

[danielwalline]

No, I don't think you're less of a person than me.  I just want to be repected and have rights as a man, even if I don't want to have sex with any other man.  And that is not the case.

I was asking a question, actually, about history, and ancient cultures.  I find Ori to be an expert on just like about anything he talks about.  I don't want to believe it, but maybe one reason the Spartans were such excellent, reknown, warriors was because of their sexual practices.  If so, and how does anyone know his answer, was it because they were homosexual, or biisexaul, or because they had all this pent up libido that is direct, not at sex, but physical prowess.  Priests say that their libido is supposed to be subliminated to their calling.  I thought I was being funny but didn't think it should be offense to anyone.  Who is it that is touchy here?  Me?

[Renegade]

Maybe there should be a new category added to the forum titled "Arguments and Insults" 

[Rachel421]

yeahh,

beliefs are just that, beliefs.

i personally never understood homosexuality, from an evolutionary perspective i think you are right, homosexuality has no place in reproduction but society has a vast effect on us, our beliefs etc

as theusurper put it very well, it's not wrong for men to see beauty in other men, when we look at bodybuilding competitions and feats of strength, we are doing just that and seeing two attractive women going at it isn't natural but a lot of men go for that lol.

as i said, i do believe heterosexuality is natural and i'm not comfortable around overly 'gay' people, which tbh is more of an imitation of a perception of being 'gay' but i digress, that's my view on it and i expect it to be accepted just as i accept those of a gay person, neither is right or wrong.

this is still a valid conversation though, just  .. lol a bad way to start it?

sex can be for reproduction or pleasure, the former is a heterosexual action, the latter can be done with women, men and well..use your imagination lol
 it's personal preference really.

wolf, this is totally unrelated to topic ( i hate it when i do this) but today i finally dove in and did the "hold your breath while you walk" exercise.  it was a pretty big deal, since oxygen starvation has been a big problem in my health challenges.   i believe being SOB is what started my panic disorders. well, 25 steps, again and again.   by the fourth or fifth time i got up to 27. my last set was 30.  i never thought id be so good at it, or that it would improve so rapidly.  im going to do this everyday as i walk the puppy.  thanks for the exercise. ive needed to increase lung capacity and poise for the longest.   cheers all!   

[clake16]

Ori,
I know this is probably out of line, or at least off the subject.  However, your title does mention sex, so I feel emboldened to ask this question.  I have an avid interest in history.  I have become a fan of the Spartans, mostly from your description.  However, I recently saw a documentary about Sparta.  It seems that males, and females were raised apart, and lived separate lives.  They knew little about how to relate to the oposite sex.  Marriages were arranged, and spouses did not live together.  Most sexual relations between them were furtive things in visits of the husband in the middle of the night.  And, of course, it mentions that boys may have had sex with their mentors, and other members of their military unit.

As for Alexander, he was indesputably a great tactition.  However, he probably murdered his own father.  The army that he feilded was entirely the product of his fathers efforts.  When he was in Persia, after conquest, he led a drunkend debatched life style.  He had dozens of carefully chosen wives, but the love of his life was another man, who seemed to travel with him to serve that as his only purpose.  When this beloved man died, Alexander was so agreived that he himself died a short time later.

Argh.  None of this sounds natural to me.  These habits were certainly not the result of evolutionary guidence.  Were they?  I would love to hear a response on this, and would greatly appreciate it if you could refute the whole thing!
Dan

Well, I think what your getting at is more like guys in jail than people choosing to be a certain way.  You even mentioned that they are separated (not choose to be with all dudes) from the women.  Either way, I'm not defending it or refuting it, just making an observation.

[danielwalline]

Ya, it was like being in prison.  They had a thriving artestry that suddenly ended when they began this code of society.  Everything was regimated.  Every man was supposed to be interchangeable.  They were raised, from childhood, to be warriors, and nothing else.  Each man was only allowed to have the same amount of property, and wealth as every other.  There were allowed only 10,000 men in their population.  Less than desirable babys, were thrown off a cliff immediately in order to meet this goal.  They enslaved aother state, the whole thing.  Ori said, in the show I heard today, that there were almost a million of them.  They had elite warriors, that were trained by wandering around this place, and furtively killing men in the population, that stood out, or were successful or respected.

Ori said also that they treated women equally.  Equally bad I guess.  When the king of the Spartans took the 300 to Thermopoli, his wife knew he would not return.  Everyone knew that.  In their last conversation, she said, 'What are your instructions?'  He replied, 'Marry a good man, and have good children.'  You can see that as brave and bold if you choose, but I think that both of them were as cold to each other as it sounds.

[Ró-fhéinní]

To clarify, spartans lived in a socialist society where polis pride was everything. Anyone who put them-self before the whole brought shame to self and city. At times they executed, other times they banished.

The spartan saying "return home with your shield or upon it" applies here since to the spartans there was no option of fleeing a battle or surrendering. this was the point of pride to their polis and is also the code that made them as fearsome as they were - they were there to win the battle or die trying.

for the sake of the forum and my time, go buy a book. i recommend soldiers and ghosts, it gives good insight to the greek way of life and sparta in particular.