opinions, myths, and answers about muscle gain, fat loss, and strength

[mrmojorisin]

I think that we all can and will make this the longest topic in Warrior Diet history! and it'll be fun. What are the goals that all of us who are on this diet, and or interested in this diet would like to achieve? I think that most of us will answer by saying: to gain, lean muscle mass, stregth, & to burn fat. Well let's look at different exercises, and the facts that we know about how to achieve these goals, and see if these particular exercises are truly the correct ones to be doing, or if we're doing them out of false beliefs, past practices, or because they're easy and we're a little lazy.

(1. Cardio/long distance running. I've talked to a LOT of runners and most will tell you that they "feel great", and that their cardiovascular fitness is so outstanding. Wel, let's look at the facts. It's proven that strenuous exercise that is done continuosly for more than 45 minutes is actually detrimental to your endocrine system for several hours after exercise is finished. It's so negative because your testosterone levels will drop, and your cortisol levels will increase, and not to mention how long distance running is very hard on you knee joints.
So, everyone knows that to build lean muscle, burn fat, and to increase stregth you need your hormones to be in check; therefore if you want to run I would opt. for short distance sprinting(100, 200, 400 yds.) like wolf had said earlier. Atheletes who are sprinters, hurdlers, etc. are obviously in better physical shape than the 6" 140 lbs. long distance runners. In conclusion exercise should be short, explosive, and challenging for a good hormonal response, and to gain lean muscle/ burn fat.

(2.Compound exercises VS. isolated exercises I've read arguments over this topic for over ten years. Some people will say that you should use machines, or free weights that will isolate the muscle to focus more on growth, and hypertrophy. Other people will tell you that the human body is naturally best designed to work in synchronicity, and this is the way that true stregth, and  is attained. I happen to believe the latter.
Isolated exercises will cause muscles to grow, and especially if you're a beginner, but the reason that this is happening is because you're using resisitance exercises and tearing/rebuilding muscle; it's a very simple process and function. However, just because you're muscles are larger doesn't mean you're truly stronger. Actually, outside of these isolated exercise most "bodybuilders" are dysfuctional, and will find that they're sore after a game of football/soccer, basketball.

In my opinion compund exercises are the ONLY way to go. I think exercises like the bench press, squats, pull-ups, push-ups, bent-over rows, barbell curls, lunges, etc.while being done in a CFT fashion are the exercise for strength, lean muscle mass, and to burn fat the best; and 30 minutes is about all you will be able to handle if done correctly. Wolf is right about the squats if done by relaxing the quads will be very easy on the back, and won't cause any damage to the vertabrae, and I'll agree with LF365 about the improper use of some exercises like hack squats, good mornings, etc. aren't something you want to be doing either, and I know a lot about back injuries I broke mine in 03'.

(3. How much to train/overtraining I always hear people talking about overtraining, and how many days a week to train. In my opinion there isn't a set amount of days to train. I say this because evryone is different, and there is only one certain way to know what's too much, and that's what you're body is telling you. If you go the the gym for 6 days a week and feel great, then i would say keep it up(FREAK!!); but if you go only four days a week and are feeling fatigued, can't focus, or are unusaully weker than normal then you're overtrained or sick. So, just go with you"Warrior instincts", and don't worry too much about what some muscle magazine tells you.

[mrmojorisin]

P.S

Oh yeah, comments, suggestions, or any other replies would be welcome.

[Theo]

 i don't know about it being the longest topic mate,...well not now lol, that was a pretty conclusive post. nicely done!

[ishina]

I donated you some karma for this outstanding post.

Concerning your posting I would like to comment in very short words.

The goal I want to reach using the Warrior Diet is a traceback towards my inherent instincts. I want to feel the natural response of my body towards certain acts and certain input (e.g. foods, drinks, supplements). As every body is different, this is a science of watching and evaluating, this is about personal statistics and feelings. You can either mathematically [ statistically ] trace the actions which did you good or work towards your feelings to receive direct bio-feedback from your body's neural system.

Concerning training I believe in the saying, that the human ins one. Mind and body is one, training, regeneration, mind set and nutrition is one. It all has to fit together in order to function properly. A lack in one certain structural part will lessen the overall performance.
Furthermore, I firmly believe in the parameter of intensity. While I love easy regenerative exercise (power walks, bike touring), an amplification of performance is solely granted by a form of overload which is best induced by dramatic intensity. If you are able to endure extreme intensity over a sustainable amount of time (and have the ability to come back with vengeance), you will most likely handle lower intensity with a much higher endurance in return. This explains the logic behind Oris recommendation, he made during one of his radio shows, to train towards a 10 km run using sprints only. The intensity trained with sprints transfers into a higher abililty to withstand a medium intensity over a longer period of time.

I therefore reckon that the fundamental answers as to "how to train" or "how to eat" find their ideal answers in observing your own doings and the feedback given by your body. Become all one and the universe is literally at your disposal. This is a rather spiritual viewpoint, but I have found it to be the one I can believe in most from my momentary position. If it will endure as well - time will surely tell.

[mrmojorisin]

ishina and wolf, thank you. I like what you're saying about being one with yourself, and what's funny is that it's harder for most people to listen to their bodies instead of going by some sort of mathematical/scientific formula. Their inner voice is drowned out,and I think that's because people are afraid; they're afraid to step outside what everyone else is doing so that they don't get lost. The irony of it all is that everyone else is usually lost too.

[chico]

its awesome we have good posters on the forum. before you guys joined it was getting dead. i enjoy the thread. good times warrior!!!

[Saneatsu]

Just wanted to share an interesting read on the cardio topic. It's a series from Lyle McDonald's blog, and he tends to be fairly long-winded, but I enjoyed it. I'm sure if this is something that interests you, you'll breeze through it and then be clicking on the links to other entries.

Steady state versus interval training: Getting to the point Part 1 (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/blog/2008/04/28/steady-state-versus-interval-training-getting-to-the-point-part-1/)
Stead state versus intervals: Finally, a conclusion (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/blog/2008/05/02/stead-state-versus-intervals-finally-a-conclusion/)
Steady state versus intervals and EPOC: Practical application (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/blog/2008/04/12/steady-state-versus-intervals-and-epoc-practical-application/)

[mrmojorisin]

O.k Saneatsu, I see myself as a fairly intelligent person, but I've spent almost half an hour trying to figure out what this guy is saying; and still don't have a clue. He admits on 5 occasions that he's wordy , and yet still can't make a single point. Do me two favors explaint to me what he's saying in two sentences or less, and two never put another post from this guy EVER again. Thanks.

[mrmojorisin]

I think that this previous post from David is very informative, and a first hand point of view from someone who has tried both ways of exercising, and says that the CFT model has given him much quicker success and better overall results.



"Great posts mrmojorisin and wolf,

Here's my 2c.

As far as running goes, I can tell you what my experiece was. I started doing triathlons to get in shape and loose weight. At 5'10 and 185 pounds I felt I had at least 20-30 pounds to loose. I started training and over time increased workouts to around 12-16 hours a week and completed several olympic and half-ironman triathlons. I actually started doing pretty well in my races - but guess what - I hardly lost ANY weight, but all the training made me feel great. Some lessons I learnt from this:

1. Large amounts of cardio (2+ hours a day) is not enough to loose weight. You need a sensible diet too. I was actually watching what I was eating and even logged my calories on a website for around 6 months- but restricting calories and doing a lot of cardio did not work for me  (BTW since starting WD I have experienced great results - more on that in another post)

2. I found that 14+ hours per week did NOT constitute overtraining *for me*. I never felt fatigued or got sick etc. I don't think this is because I am special in any way since all the guys that I used to train with and have met through triathlon all train minimum 12 hours per week.  However, when you compare the workouts of people doing CFT, strength workouts, bodybuilding etc it sems that people spend a lot less time training for these... so does this mean that weights have a more profound effect on your body than cardio (swim,bike,run)? I think so. I think that the hormonal effects of lifting heavy weight and building muscle mass are greater than the hormonal effects from endurance sports (even though people spend 4-5 times longer per week training for endurance sports).

3. As far the long distance runner vs sprinter argument goes, I'm going to have to disagree. I don't think its fair to compare these athletes as they are training to achieve specific body types. Long distance runners want to be extremely thin and wirey  becasue that translates to faster marathon times. So runners do not squat, deadlift etc - they just run a lot and diet hard. Sprinters train for power so they Squat, Dead lift, press etc. Obviously the sprinter is going to look bigger. The only way the comparison would make sense would be if both sets of athletes train the same way and same amount of time with weights - which they don't.

Personally since I started the WD and CFT 2 weeks ago, my body has made more change (for the better) than I had with 12 months of endurance training. How much is contributed to the WD alone and how much to CFT I am not sure...

The question I am still most interested in is how much training does it take to "over train" and I agree with mrmojorisin wrote - it is probably very personal. There are so many factors: intensity of workout, length or workout, number of workouts per week, which muscles are trained per session etc. One interesting thing I have noticed is that the guys who do Crossfit seem to train 6 days a week and their workouts seem really intense. Does anyone on this board have any experience with crossfit?

I've decided to experiment a little myself. So far I have been doing 3 CFT sessions per week and I can comfortably handle that. I feel like I need to do more so I am going to add in either 2 days a week of pure strength excercises or perhaps 1 strength and 1 crossfit. If it ends up being too much I will just cut it back and see what happens.... One thing I have been pretty religious about is keeping my workouts to around 30 mins and have a good recovery after my workouts (I'm having 3 scoops of warrior milk). I know most people will say that 5 sessions a week is overdoing it (even if they are only 30min each)... but I guess I have decided to learn the hard way!

It would be really interesting to hear what other peoples weekly training schedule looks like. Is there anyone out there training more than 4 days a week with weights? Anyone combining CFT and crossfit?"

It seems to me from david's post that when he was training for 2 or more hours a day, and 14 hrs a week for 6-12 months, and he didn't see results as good as he has seen with 30 minutes a day, and only three days a week. I can also speak for myself, and say that I lost all of my weight very quickly(within 3 months) after starting the diet, and am very lean and muscular. I've been doing this diet for 2 years now, and have gained around 7 pounds of lean muscle.

[Saneatsu]

David's experience and your experience both have a lot of factors and details that made them what they are - it's the big picture. The blog entries are only looking at specifically the effect of steady-state cardio vs. the effect of interval training. In particular, they're addressing the "interval training is best", "do sprints to look like a sprinter", "intervals are better because you burn fat for 48 hours afterward", and other similar claims that are very common in today's fitness scene.

It's been a while since I read over the entries, but I guess some of the big points would be:

1) High intensity intervals are anaerobic exercise and inflict a good amount of stress on the leg muscles, which produces a need for the consideration of recovery and balance with other anaerobic (strength/weight) training.

2) The "afterburn" or "prolonged fat burning" of intervals only amounts to a very small number of calories and can easily be surpassed by a session of steady-state cardio slightly longer than the interval session in many cases.

3) Most of the really great gains that intervals will give the untrained individual only continue for the first few weeks.

He's not against intervals, but simply annoyed by the "intervals or bust" mantra of the current fitness scene. As he admits, and I will definitely admit, intervals are a great part of a program, but they're not "better" than steady-state cardio. Both have their place. By the way, we're discussing intervals, not CFT.

Personally, I love HIIT cardio. It's tons of fun, and it's quick. It's just not as magical as it's made out to be.

[mrmojorisin]

So, what is really the difference between intervals, HIIT, and a CFT? These are all based off of short intense training methods that are aimed at both cardio, and muscularity development.

[Saneatsu]

Well in this case HIIT (high intensity interval training) cardio and intervals are the same thing. It's just cardio, but you swap between periods of high intensity and lower intensity. It does happen to include some anaerobic qualities which can trigger hypertrophy, but this is not the aim but rather a byproduct of running very fast. The end goal is still cardiovascular.

I'm no expert in CFT, but I don't think anyone here will try to say that CFT is a form of cardio. Sure, it includes cardio as a "pre-fatigue" exercise, and there seems to be little rest which can tax the cardiovascular system, but these are both to add different stress factors to an anaerobic weights session. So I would say the goal of CFT is muscle/strength development, with some additional cardio benefit.

If you swapped all of your CFT sessions out with HIIT cardio, the results would be very different. But I was only addressing your first point which mentioned the body type difference between sprinters and marathoners. That difference arises from a variety of variables, not to mention the fact that sprinters are only sprinting 2-3 days per week, with other days consisting of lower intensity cardio. It's perfectly fine to supplement your CFT or other anaerobic training with 30-60 minutes of lower intensity cardio, which can offer some nice benefits and will not significantly interfere with your recovery. On the other hand, if you're going to supplement with HIIT cardio, you have to take into account that you're not just adding cardio, you're adding extra hypertrophy which can be detrimental because your muscle tissue may never be fully recovering.

Of course, steady-state cardio should be used in moderation as well, depending on your goals. I'm not saying that I would do CFT three times per week and then run 15 miles on all of my off days.

[LF365]

Hey, I just wanted to add my thoughts on this subject.

I read something interesting years ago about HIIT. Although it wasn't referenced by any modern scientific studies it did make sense.

Basically it was suggesting that HIIT cardio mimics the natural way we worked our cardiovascular system as a species for thousands of years. Primal hunting, fighting was based around shorter bursts of energy. It also suggested that HIIT mimics most of our individual childhoods.

If you played sports when you were a child most of them are centered around short bursts of energy. Baseball, you hit and run or run for the ball then stop. Football you run, you stop. Soccer, basketball ... and so on.  When we played outside of sports we also ran for short distances then stopped.

As a child I don't ever remember running for 10, 20 or 30 min non stop all the time. But I do remember that at times when I needed to, I had the stamina to do so.

I read somewhere that as children we were more instinctual by nature when it came to exercise. Only as adults influenced by the so-called "experts" we loose our instinctual ability. 

Let me just take a short detour for a second and say, this holds true for our dreams.  As a child we're not hindered by societies insecurities. We believed that, we could achieve whatever we put our minds too. As adults we are bombarded with negative thinking we loose our child-like ability to dream and achieve.

Okay so coming back to my point.  If this is indeed true that as children we were more instinctual by nature, it would also be true that HIIT training is more inline with our primal ways and our biology. 

Not only that, but HIIT conditions us for modern-day activities which requires short bursts of energy; running to catch a bus, up a flight of stairs, etc.

I think there is a place for both styles in our routines, but I believe the best way is to vary them. As you know, life can throw a curve ball at you at any moment so it is best to be physically prepared for all situations. Do a 1/1 for 10 min., then next time do a 3/1 for 10 or 15 mim.  Every few days do a straight 10 min high intensity. Once very 2-3 weeks do a straight 20-30 min hight intensity run. Mix it up a bit.

[Saneatsu]

I'm not sure if HIIT is so much in line with how we played when we were kids. It's very structured, and the intensity goes way up and way down, between two opposites. I think it's a lot more variable when we're kids. That said, it's definitely closer than an hour of steady-state. But I definitely agree with mixing it up. Even within HIIT, I will vary my routines.

I like your little aside, and I'd like to get off-topic a bit as well and ask - have you or anyone else ever read any of (Jiddu) Krishnamurti's work?

[Theo]

very good post LF365, i liked it a lot and i couldn't agree more.